As you know, we have been campaigning against the Nutrient Profiling Model. What is your view?

We recognise the limitations [of the model]. We said all along we'd review it after a year and we are doing that. We are happy to be challenged by the industry, but I challenge back: 'What were you doing?' The FSA did as best it could. The job they did was pretty good.

The White Paper of 2004 talked about a two-fold objective: to give people a labelling system that helps them to identify foods that are high in fat, salt and sugar (HFSS); and to choose foods that are healthy and nutritious. You've met the first part of the brief, even if you concede it has limitations, but you've surely failed on the second.

But we need to be wary of masking, adding calcium, vitamins. It's disingenuous. I've read articles that show apparently healthy sandwiches that are laden with salt and fat.

Isn't it better, though, that we add positively healthy ingredients into the nation's favourite products, instead of encouraging them to drink diet Red Bull and products stuffed with preservatives and e-numbers?

I know you've raised chicken nuggets as an example of an unnutritious product, but if it's 100% chicken breast, I don't see what's wrong with that.

And we don't see what's wrong with cheese.

When Ofcom looked into TV advertising, it found 90% of the cheese lines ­advertised were for dipper products.

But you've set a legal precedent that punishes Babybel and other natural cheeses. Even some of the dipper products now use wholewheat fibre in the bread and add vitamins D and E.

Yes, and Nestlé Munch Bunch yoghurts have been reformulated. Isn't that the point? Regardless of people's complaints about food labelling, no-one can dispute it's created a debate, started suppliers and grocery retailers down the route of alternatives, reformulations and food labelling. It's all about the mix of how you pull it together. It's clear to me that some sectors in the food industry don't want to be seen on the wrong side; while others are happy where they are, like Cadbury, which markets itself as a treat.

So why this face-off? Why have suppliers almost all chosen to go with GDAs?

Shoppers want something quick. Look, when we started down the food labelling route, the main focus was to look at what families were most concerned about, and that was ready-made meals and sandwiches. Should we label cake? No, shoppers weren't worried about that, it was about meal replacement and a fear of hidden ingredients. The fact that retailers and manufacturers chose to label everything was not our fault.

I assume they did this in anticipation of future legislation. You've now said you'd be happy to see traffic lights and GDAs operating in tandem. Why is that?

I've always been ready to praise the industry for its work. We've made significant inroads on salt, bread. But the retail industry has taken this on for business reasons, too. Health is no longer a fad, it's a business trend. And if you are addressing health concerns, it means it is a store you can trust. Part of that was seizing the health agenda. We've worked with industry on behaviour. Where there's a difference is on labelling, but that difference doesn't just exist within government. Even within Dairy UK there are differences of opinion on how to label products.

But you never want to talk about portion sizes. You talk about sugar and saturated fat. But the principal cause of obesity is because people eat too much. Is it the case that Labour is frightened to tell people to stop being greedy pigs?

We have talked about portion size. But there's confusion. It depends on the age of the child. There's only so many labels you can use on a pack if you don't want to cause even more environmental damage. And then you've got other manufacturers encouraging you to buy three for two.

Yes. But that's because the debate has been focused on the measurements per 100g. We're seeing crisp and confectionery suppliers supersizing portions. Surely here is the proof you need to switch the debate away from a semi-scientific diagnosis of a standard measure, and towards portions.

We have. It's not our fault if you don't pick up our messages.

I was taught that you shouldn't eat a portion bigger than the palm of your hand. Wouldn't this be a good message to send out? That would work for adults as well as children, women as well as men.

But it's also what's in that hand. If someone could come up with a system that takes portion size and positive nutrients into account, all well and good, but as I said, no-one has come up with a better system so far.

There are other systems out there. We've identified at least five in The Grocer, Minister, including one, in the US, that appears to have the buy-in of the whole grocery trade developed by Dr Adam Drewnowski.

We will look at that.

This week we are also covering a new Top Trumps-style game that's been developed by a school that's having remarkable results. I was wondering if you were aware of this, and whether you would be interested to know more.

We would. We like Top Trumps.

Minister, we are also concerned the DoH is not paying enough attention to exercise in the obesity debate. The Grocer conducted a survey of children earlier this year and it found only 16% of 11 to 15-year-olds, and 12% of 16 to 20-year olds are doing the seven hours of exercise recommended by DoH.

The figures in our own research, using 8,000 kids, were better than that. In 2002 a health survey for England by the Information Centre found only 25% of children were doing exercise for two hours a week. In 2007, it was 80% and in 2008 we expect it to reach 85%.

What about competitive sport? Selling off inner city playing fields?

Everyone talks about the loss of school playing fields. That's not right. In 2003/04, for the first time ever, there were more playing fields gained than lost. The other thing we've got going is the notion of valid alternatives to competitive sport. In my own constituency in Doncaster, we're providing 3,000 children with rowing machines. They are safe, which is important to overweight children. I've seen indoor curling aimed at kids in wheelchairs. I've seen circuit-training in the north east, for shy kids who are both overweight and underweight. And dance in schools is really picking up, because of the attention from TV programmes like Strictly Come Dancing.

So are you saying that everything is fine?

It's not that everything is fine, but this problem has crept up on us over the past 50 years. I think it will take 10 years [to fix]. We need to do more in early infant care. It's much harder if a bad diet is already developed. But I think we are making inroads into the problem: 89% of schools are part of the Healthy Schools Programme, which involves healthy eating and physical activity; 5-a-day awareness is now at 72%, too. But the problem is there is still a disconnect between awareness and behaviour. Consumers tell us things get in the way of a healthy diet.

What gets in the way?

People say it takes too much time to cook. They say that when they buy fresh produce they end up chucking everything out. They also believe it costs too much to eat healthily. And the other problem is that when we talk about exercise, this is perceived to involve joining a gym. We are trying to get parents and kids to think in terms of walking up the stairs, or taking the bus and getting off one stop early. Parents are also concerned about safety both from increased traffic and stranger danger. In reality stranger danger is no higher than it was 50 years ago, but traffic is more of a concern. So we need to have more 20mph zones, and to make parks safer.

What has happened to the Healthy Living Social Marketing Strategy? That looked like a really intelligent, holistic response to the obesity issue but it appears to have fallen off your radar.

No, it's ongoing. We're trying to get the right balance. We've got the top 10 tips for mums. But we're starting to think bigger on the activity front. It's about how you make the messages practical to implement. Our message is: 'Small change, big difference.' Just increasing consumption of fruit and veg to 5-a-day leads to a 20% reduction in heart disease. We will incorporate new initiatives over the next two years. One of these will address portion size. That will happen over the next year. It's about balance, portion size, then knowledge. Sometimes initiatives will come from other departments. For the new cycling proficiency test, the Department of Transport has said that by 2009, 50% of all year six pupils will be trained. We can't have one big masterplan. We've got to change the culture of society, and we've identified 150 partners outside the DoH that we need to work with, some in food, some in sport.

We also have a number of other initiatives in place. Under the Healthy Start Programme you can now use the vouchers for fruit and veg, as well as milk. And we've doubled the age of eligibility. We've also got more retailers than ever engaged in the programme. It only started in November, and we've initiated discussions with the convenience sector. We're keen to get into neighbourhoods, to the Spars, Bestways, Costcutters. We've already done some work with them.

We've also developed a teen life check website, a simple test, with no right or wrong answers, but some useful signposts on a teenager's health. You can take the test alone or through your school. It's out there to get teenagers thinking. It's involved six months of development. I'm really proud of my people on that.

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